A judge in state district court said Wednesday that a grand jury witness should not have been told that he could not speak about his grand jury testimony.

Gary “Johnny” Manuel testified that when he was subpoenaed in June to testify before the grand jury in Joe Palermo Jr.’s stolen property and forgery case, he was told that he could not discuss the secret proceedings.

Louisiana’s Code of Criminal Procedure says that “a witness may discuss his testimony given before the grand jury with counsel for a person under investigation or indicted, with the attorney general or the district attorney, or with the court.”

The hearing was part of a motion to quash grand jury subpoenas, but Manuel has already testified before the grand jury, which indicted Palermo.

Judge Ron Ware said he would leave it to prosecutors to inform officers who serve subpoenas.

Prosecutor Carla Sigler said she and fellow prosecutors will work to ensure that happens.

Palermo, 70, was arraigned Wednesday on four counts of possession of stolen property, two counts of altering or removing identifying numbers on motor vehicles, and one count of forgery. Ware set a $70,000 bond.

Manuel, Palermo’s brother-in-law, said two men served him the subpoena in June — state police Sgt. Brad Guidroz and Scott Bailey with the state Attorney General’s Office.

Manuel said he asked if he could discuss his grand jury testimony with Palermo. Bailey told him that he could not speak with anyone about his testimony, not even Palermo, Manuel said.

Bailey was not in court Wednesday, but Guidroz was. Guidroz said he recorded the conversation.

Before serving the subpoena, Guidroz asked Manuel several questions and requested that Manuel not discuss the questions with anyone else. Guidroz said that, for safety reasons, that was his standard procedure when interviewing witnesses.

The conversation turned to what could be discussed about grand jury testimony, when Manuel asked if he could tell his girlfriend, Guidroz said.

Bailey told Manuel that grand jury testimony is secret, Guidroz said.

“We didn’t tell him who he can and cannot speak to,” Guidroz said.

Guidroz said he told Manuel if anyone else questioned him, he could answer their questions if he so desired, but did not have to.

Ware said Manuel had been “given incorrect information.”

Guidroz said he first contacted Manuel on July 23, 2013. Manuel ended the interview, but contacted Guidroz wishing to speak and they met again on July 29, 2013, Guidroz said.

“Manuel contacted me and said he wanted to get a few things off his chest and clarify things,” Guidroz said.

Luther “Bucky” Wood Jr., a former employee of Palermo’s, testified that when he was served a subpoena, Guidroz was “polite and professional,” but that Bailey “needs to be fired.”

Bailey told Wood, a former heavy-equipment operator, that he, along with his father and his family, were “no good” and that if he didn’t testify against Palermo, Bailey would send him to jail for 10 years, Wood testified.

“After that, if my health hadn’t been so bad, I’d have been sweeping my momma’s porch with him,” Wood said. “That pretty much ended the conversation.”

Wood claimed the conversation was taped, but that the recorder was turned on and off.

Prosecutors played about 30 seconds of the conversation, in which either Bailey or Guidroz said, “If you hear from anybody, you can talk to them. You don’t have to, but you can. If anyone follows you, call that number.”

“Okey dokey,” Wood replied.

Both Manuel and Wood are represented by attorney Wilford Carter, whose fees are being paid by Palermo, according to court testimony.

Palermo’s lawyers are also seeking to quash the indictment based on a claim that prosecutor Hugo Holland broke grand jury secrecy by telling someone about the indictment while it was sealed.

Holland, who lives in north Louisiana, was not in court Wednesday. Sigler said he was not present because he had not been served his subpoena in person, as is required for attorneys.

Ware said the hearings need to be resolved.

“We need to follow the law, of course, but Mr. Holland, of course, knew this was coming,” the judge said.(MGNonline)